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Skegness 20s

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:12 pm
by Pip Dunn
I have a query and i am really hoping someone can clear this up.....

It relates to the summer of 1975....

On Tuesday July 29 i have 20060/176 listed as working the 0930 Nottingham-Skegness and 1900 Skegness-Nottingham - a Tinsley-Toton combination, which was relatively unusual in the mid 1970s, but not unheard of...

It's the following day where i have the real query. I had 20176/177 down for the same train, but another source suggests this might have actually been 20012/177.

Fast forward three days to August 2, a Saturday, and 20143/176 worked the 0920 Derby-Skegness and 1305 Skegness-Derby.

So did 20176/177 or 20012/177 work on July 30?

Was 20060 definitely with 20176?

Did 20176 really have 20060, possibly 20177 and 20143 as partners over five days?

Can anyone clarify any of these workings - ideally with a pic?

Re: Skegness 20s

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:10 am
by Ian Prince

Whilst I cant confirm or deny your conundrum, pairing of 41A TI & 16A TO class 20's was as you say, exceptionally rare back in 1975.

Re: Skegness 20s

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:20 pm
by Peter Hall
Although I no longer normally post on this forum I will make an exception in this case.

I suspect the source of these references is the 'Weekday Skegness Trains 1975' summary that I typed during the 1980's. A photo copy of this was sent to Pip at a Greenfield, Saddleworth address in the early summer of 1991. My presumption being Pip has subsequently not received any other information collaborating this other than that suggesting use of a different pair on July 30th.

Back in 1975 I was not collating Summer Saturday records, that started slightly later, but the late Ed Lund was and I am fortunate to hold many of his records. It is these records that I used to compile the typed sheets. Ed's original ledgers did not include the weekday trains in 1975 but did of course include the Saturday trains. On Saturday 2nd August 20143+20176 are confirmed by both a renowned Class 20 aficionado from Boston and a gentleman who instilled fear in those who travelled on the Southern Region without a valid ticket, so I think we can be sure of the accuracy.

In Ed's 1975 observations box file there appear to be few observations of the weekday East Midlands to Skegness trains although I do need to go through this file with a fine toothcomb at some point. It should though be remembered that this was the first summer a weekday 09:xx Derby-Skegness / 19:xx Skegness-Derby train had appeared in the public timetable although it had run in previous years presumably advertised locally. Also the phenomena of 'bashing' had yet to take hold away from the Western Region, the few like Ed who were 'bashing' did it when they were not doing other things. I would suspect if you were covering this train in 1975/1976 you may well have had the front compo to yourself, that was my experience of the Scarborough-Sheffield at the time. Thus, few records of what was used on these trains are likely to exist.

Fortunately, in 1975 enthusiasts at Sleaford and Boston would turn out to see the weekday trains and in the 1980's I was fortunate through the above mentioned gentleman from Boston to receive a listing of observations of the weekday Derby train which was the basis of the typed sheets. I have in front of me the sheet provided and as it clearly shows the way around each pair was in each direction with gaps so it can be considered to be based on actual observations. However, the details of the Nottingham relief have been added later in my writing and as yet I have not traced the source document but they are certainly not my sightings. The relief did not run everyday and not always in both directions. The outward train did not run to a fixed path and could run before or after the Derby train. It is my suspicion looking at the data afresh that the Boston observer may have just come out to view the Derby train and not have known about the relief running. It may be the days when different locomotives are quoted in each direction for the Derby train that in fact in one direction it was the relief that was observed.

On July 29 I have written the relief both ways as 20060+20176 whilst on the 30th it is recorded as going out ecs rather than as a train with 20176+20177 so no transcription error when typing. This does not rule out a transcription error from the original source. Another possibly is that perhaps the outward train did run with 20012+20177 but never made it.

Pip's query does suggest that what I have typed is, if true, was a very unusual event but possible and little to suggest it did not happen.

Finally, it is worth mentioning something the late Peter Fox said about the train and its relief around this time. That was that the 'Jolly Fisherman' tickets for use on these trains were very cheap, a decision taken locally to bring in revenue and fill the trains. This resulted in over crowded trains on occasions and more reliefs than we have in the records running. He was sure that in 1976 for example that when the 10:45 Glasgow - Nottingham arrived at Nottingham it had a quick locomotive change before running ecs to Skegness to form a relief back to Nottingham.

Re: Skegness 20s

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:17 am
by 46046_45020
Well I have 20176/143 together on the 31st - probably on the Derby - Skegness

Peter - I was hoping to get to see some of your 'Summer Saturday' books you did from the 70's?
I was talking to a bloke who runs the bookshop at Matlock STN a few months ago and he said you were going to post them on here, but it looks like there's some issue with the admin :roll:


Re: Skegness 20s

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:16 am
by Ian Prince
Checked back through my fairly comprehensive and accurate July and August 1975 records which included visits to Derby, Nottingham and elsewhere.

Regrettably the specified Cl. 20s detailed above did not show in any of those records. (Although others did obviously).


Re: Skegness 20s

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:19 pm
by Peter Hall
On 31st August 1975 our records have 20168+20173 on the Derby Skegness with 2512%+25270 on the return with no relief running. This though is a day when conceivably miss-identification of trains took place. 25125+25270 had in fact been on the Derby-Skegness & return for the previous three days so would have been expected to have done the same on the 31st. So quite conceivable a relief had run with 20168+20173and mistaken for the train. Other scenarios are of course possible.

I suspect Nick has been speaking to the Barron of Elton! I bumped into him last Autumn when lumbered with doing 32 circuits of Matlock conveying connoisseurs of fine ales to their jamboree in County Hall. He asked if copies of 'SO' were still available. These books were of course compiled and published by the late Ed Lund not me They are no longer available, but it has been suggested they might be scanned and placed on line. What I did say was that I hoped in due course to put the 250+ mainly typed sheets of Summer Saturday and associated workings onto the RCTS website but this would not happen until the new website was functioning. Of course, when this might happen is somewhat of a mystery. Despite various members questioning the MC on the topic at the Society AGM the mystery remains to be solved.